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likethebeerI wrote too much. Big surprise :)
Oh, and here's a request: Please don't hurt me.
Along the lines of "I want the debate!", by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
seattleforge:
I was just thinking about, not debate, but a "national conversation" as I was going to work. I'd like a national conversation. We can't talk about this at all, so pro-choicers must support abortion, all abortions, for fear of sounding like we don't want it at all. Because there's no conversation. I tried it even with a woman during our pseudo-pagan ritual in Dec. She's returned to her Roman Catholic roots (and is pro-life) and is adopting a baby from Guatemala with her husband right now. I brought up one point, she brought up another, more things were going on around the table, and we couldn't talk more. And I'd like to talk, as long as we're not yelling.
Here are a few things I think about:
*in 1973, there were no home pregnancy tests and it sometimes took up to 2 months to figure out you were pregnant.
*Roe v. Wade came at the end of 60-70 years of great strides for women's rights, and not that long after it became legal to be prescribed birth control. This is something I've learned over time; this is nothing I ever learned in school--you learn about women winning the right to vote, that's it. But there were plenty of people in 1973 who had personal experiences with horror stories: women who'd been raped (of course incest wasn't mentioned); women who'd had 12 pregnancies and were going insane; women who kept getting pregnant when they shouldn't have because it risked their lives; teenagers who got pregnant and their lives as they knew it were just over, just like that; women who died giving birth (which has got to be an incredibly horrible way of dying); women who were rendered sterile by illegal abortions or if not, went through incredible pain; women who died from home abortions. [My mother watched 1 of those women die while she--my mom, the solid Roman Catholic--was a nurse. Her story is in part what made me pro-choice at a young age.]
Myself, I look at young women who don't want abortion around and I think, "Did you _know_ any Catholic families growing up?" Families with 8 kids, 12 kids, 20 kids (just 1 town from where I live). On the other hand, I defend these young women to the 50 yo women that I know in the pseudo-Wiccan rituals (how can you expect teenagers and young women in their 20s to understand what it was like, especially when no one has ever told them [see above]). And the 50 yo don't listen to me either! grump.
*There was the story I read in Salon a year & a half ago with the personal recollections of 2 women who'd had late-term abortions. Both had been married, had wanted children, and had gotten pregnant w/the purpose of having a child. But the brains of the fetuses of both women had not developed beyond the "lizard brain". Their developing babies had no eyes, no forebrain, could not think in a way that we understand and could not survive outside of the womb for more than a few hours. And this severe deformity was not discovered until the 3rd trimester. 1 woman wrote that, if she had to carry this child to term, she would have gone insane. Wondering day-to-day--is this the day my baby dies? So I'm open to third trimester abortions b/c of these 2 examples.
*There are still powerless women in this society who become pregnant when they should not.
*On the one hand, I especially want young women to be able to get abortions b/c they're among the most powerless, for all the reasons that you can imagine--rape, incest, the fear of being kicked out of the house, the need to finish school. But the point that the pro-life movement is bringing up in Connecticut (I think?) is valid--this is a medical procedure. What if something goes wrong? Someone made the point that you need permission to get your ears pierced, and you don't need permission for this? Now, I still think that obtaining an abortion without parental consent outweighs the possible complications--and I also worry that this is just another backdoor way to ban abortion--but on its own, the point is valid.
*No woman should be coerced into having an abortion if she doesn't want one, no matter her life circumstances. I've heard of 2 instances in which women have been pushed to have one (but had their children), and each time the story of anyone telling them what they should feel, or what they should do, about something _they know they want to do_ gets my blood boiling. Pro-Choice means pro-choice.
*On the heels of that, I don't know what to say about the choices of fathers. When I got pregnant almost 8 years ago (and knew I was pregnant for 2 days until I had a miscarriage), this point came home to me. I had never thought of it before. I was 29, I had no problem w/bringing the pregnancy to term (I didn't have time to think about whether I would keep the kid). But I also thought--in the thousands and thousands of things I thought for those 2 days--what about the choice of the father? Yeah, he "paid the price," but it was the 2 of us. I didn't think of this as an "accident". It was just something that happened, so I didn't blame him at all and really in this case, there was equal blame on both sides. But I thought--if I have the kid and keep it, how will he feel having to pay for 18 years? If I have the kid and give it away, how will he feel knowing a child of his is wandering out there in the world? If I have an abortion, I don't think I can ever forgive him. It was all moot, but the thoughts I had those 2 days were the first time I thought about the father's rights, even when he's still just the sperm delivery system. And I was open to talking to him about _his choice_ (I really feel I would have brought the kid to term, but I was totally open to his feelings).
*For years I've thought it would be great for moderate pro-choice & pro-life people to come together and form a network for young mothers/fathers/parents. Teaching parenting skills, giving them free childcare, being mentors, being there when they're going crazy and want to hit their kid, helping them through school, giving them diapers fer chrissakes! I think this should be natural for pro-life and it may be natural for many pro-life people as well as pro-choice; make it a policy, I'll help out. I'm not about a "culture of life"; I'm about a "culture of quality of life".
*And this doesn't bring up the fact that in countries where birth control and sex ed is more available and widely taught that abortions are infrequent occurrences.
WHEW--
this is a big subject that obviously none of us have been able to talk about in the way that we need to.
Oh, and here's a request: Please don't hurt me.
Along the lines of "I want the debate!", by
seattleforge:I was just thinking about, not debate, but a "national conversation" as I was going to work. I'd like a national conversation. We can't talk about this at all, so pro-choicers must support abortion, all abortions, for fear of sounding like we don't want it at all. Because there's no conversation. I tried it even with a woman during our pseudo-pagan ritual in Dec. She's returned to her Roman Catholic roots (and is pro-life) and is adopting a baby from Guatemala with her husband right now. I brought up one point, she brought up another, more things were going on around the table, and we couldn't talk more. And I'd like to talk, as long as we're not yelling.
Here are a few things I think about:
*in 1973, there were no home pregnancy tests and it sometimes took up to 2 months to figure out you were pregnant.
*Roe v. Wade came at the end of 60-70 years of great strides for women's rights, and not that long after it became legal to be prescribed birth control. This is something I've learned over time; this is nothing I ever learned in school--you learn about women winning the right to vote, that's it. But there were plenty of people in 1973 who had personal experiences with horror stories: women who'd been raped (of course incest wasn't mentioned); women who'd had 12 pregnancies and were going insane; women who kept getting pregnant when they shouldn't have because it risked their lives; teenagers who got pregnant and their lives as they knew it were just over, just like that; women who died giving birth (which has got to be an incredibly horrible way of dying); women who were rendered sterile by illegal abortions or if not, went through incredible pain; women who died from home abortions. [My mother watched 1 of those women die while she--my mom, the solid Roman Catholic--was a nurse. Her story is in part what made me pro-choice at a young age.]
Myself, I look at young women who don't want abortion around and I think, "Did you _know_ any Catholic families growing up?" Families with 8 kids, 12 kids, 20 kids (just 1 town from where I live). On the other hand, I defend these young women to the 50 yo women that I know in the pseudo-Wiccan rituals (how can you expect teenagers and young women in their 20s to understand what it was like, especially when no one has ever told them [see above]). And the 50 yo don't listen to me either! grump.
*There was the story I read in Salon a year & a half ago with the personal recollections of 2 women who'd had late-term abortions. Both had been married, had wanted children, and had gotten pregnant w/the purpose of having a child. But the brains of the fetuses of both women had not developed beyond the "lizard brain". Their developing babies had no eyes, no forebrain, could not think in a way that we understand and could not survive outside of the womb for more than a few hours. And this severe deformity was not discovered until the 3rd trimester. 1 woman wrote that, if she had to carry this child to term, she would have gone insane. Wondering day-to-day--is this the day my baby dies? So I'm open to third trimester abortions b/c of these 2 examples.
*There are still powerless women in this society who become pregnant when they should not.
*On the one hand, I especially want young women to be able to get abortions b/c they're among the most powerless, for all the reasons that you can imagine--rape, incest, the fear of being kicked out of the house, the need to finish school. But the point that the pro-life movement is bringing up in Connecticut (I think?) is valid--this is a medical procedure. What if something goes wrong? Someone made the point that you need permission to get your ears pierced, and you don't need permission for this? Now, I still think that obtaining an abortion without parental consent outweighs the possible complications--and I also worry that this is just another backdoor way to ban abortion--but on its own, the point is valid.
*No woman should be coerced into having an abortion if she doesn't want one, no matter her life circumstances. I've heard of 2 instances in which women have been pushed to have one (but had their children), and each time the story of anyone telling them what they should feel, or what they should do, about something _they know they want to do_ gets my blood boiling. Pro-Choice means pro-choice.
*On the heels of that, I don't know what to say about the choices of fathers. When I got pregnant almost 8 years ago (and knew I was pregnant for 2 days until I had a miscarriage), this point came home to me. I had never thought of it before. I was 29, I had no problem w/bringing the pregnancy to term (I didn't have time to think about whether I would keep the kid). But I also thought--in the thousands and thousands of things I thought for those 2 days--what about the choice of the father? Yeah, he "paid the price," but it was the 2 of us. I didn't think of this as an "accident". It was just something that happened, so I didn't blame him at all and really in this case, there was equal blame on both sides. But I thought--if I have the kid and keep it, how will he feel having to pay for 18 years? If I have the kid and give it away, how will he feel knowing a child of his is wandering out there in the world? If I have an abortion, I don't think I can ever forgive him. It was all moot, but the thoughts I had those 2 days were the first time I thought about the father's rights, even when he's still just the sperm delivery system. And I was open to talking to him about _his choice_ (I really feel I would have brought the kid to term, but I was totally open to his feelings).
*For years I've thought it would be great for moderate pro-choice & pro-life people to come together and form a network for young mothers/fathers/parents. Teaching parenting skills, giving them free childcare, being mentors, being there when they're going crazy and want to hit their kid, helping them through school, giving them diapers fer chrissakes! I think this should be natural for pro-life and it may be natural for many pro-life people as well as pro-choice; make it a policy, I'll help out. I'm not about a "culture of life"; I'm about a "culture of quality of life".
*And this doesn't bring up the fact that in countries where birth control and sex ed is more available and widely taught that abortions are infrequent occurrences.
WHEW--
this is a big subject that obviously none of us have been able to talk about in the way that we need to.
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no subject
Date: 2006-02-02 04:47 am (UTC)Yep! Exactly.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-02 02:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-02 09:51 pm (UTC)Teaching parenting skills, giving them free childcare, being mentors, being there when they're going crazy and want to hit their kid, helping them through school, giving them diapers fer chrissakes!
I think that there are a few programs like this out there now. In social service speak I think that what you're talking about is case management and child care for low-income or no-income families for as long as they need it. We're reviewing proposals right now for our next round of funding, and I think that there are quite a few agencies that provide similar services. The issue is, as always, that they're all over-stretched for funding and resources and can only do so much.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-04 12:46 am (UTC)I haven't asked my mom about abortion, although since she was a nurse and grew up in a very, very small and poor town she may have different opinions. On the other hand, as I've been told, she could have aborted my oldest sister because she was a nurse (it would have been easier to get the doctor to sign off on it), but my parents chose to marry and have the child. Of course, mom was 23, it was 1964, and she was raised Catholic, and dad was 27, raised Catholic, also.
case management and child care, hmmm?
no subject
Date: 2006-02-07 04:58 am (UTC)wow
Date: 2006-02-07 01:59 pm (UTC)